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Author Topic: Help on Beginners Telescope  (Read 1109 times)
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zahmaz
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« pada: April 27, 2010, 10:40:53 PM »

Salam,

I'm looking for a beginner's telescope. The only resourse I have was on-line and only today I stumble upon this site. Thank you to the host who made all this effort to promote amateur astronomy.

My criteria would be as follows:
1. Portable and light weight, to encourage usage
2. Easy to use
3. All purpose (I believe there's no such thing, but no harm trying) because I don't know what my interest would be, solar system or deep-sky
4. Manual, no goto
5. No photography yet
6. In other words, something that will not kill my interest

To keep it short, I have kinda narrow down to a few choices (just to start conversation, can be anything):

Low cost
1. Skywatcher Heritage 130P (130mm f/5 collapsoble newt, single arm mini dob)
2. Vixen 110L on Porta II Mount (110 f/9.8 mak, alt-az)
3. Bosma Beta RE 80 (80mm refractor, photo mount) - saw in Astrobargain

Mid cost

1. Skywatcher 8" (200mm f/6 newt collapsible dob)
2. Orion 120 SVP (120mm f/8.3, refractor, Skyview Pro eq. mount)
3. Celestron Omni XLT 127 (127mm f/10 schmidt cassegrain, eq. mount)

I would appreciate any comment and other suggestions to help me find the appropriate telescope and to help me from going into the wrong direction and end up buying useless stuff. I appreciate comment from consumers and end users as you would be more impartial and of course, 'been there'.

Thank you in advance.

zahmaz

p.s. baru terima "Nightwatch" dari amazon
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redzuan
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« Reply #1 pada: April 28, 2010, 12:59:41 AM »

Hey there! Welcome to the community (on behalf of the tokey)...

Seems like you pretty much already have a good idea of what you want. From what I understand, based on what you wrote, I would recommend a refractor with a big aperture personally, small F number (This will help a lot to find things especially faint ones) and anything smaller than a 120mm. Something that is no longer than a tripod size when collapsed down. Go anywhere telescope.

And for portability, a tripod will suffice, I think. I've also seen setup where observers attach a sky-scout on top of the scope instead of a viewfinder. It's like a manual go to. So cool! Might work for you too.

Last but not least, I am not sure if you need a slow motion manual tracking (slew) for your purpose. I would recommend it because the heavens drift quite fast when you go beyond 80mm aperture (in my opinion).

Dobs are nice too. Gives you big aperture but then you can't really carry it in a backpack. Or,would you consider a good spotting scope? Just some additional suggestion...
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shahgazer
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« Reply #2 pada: April 28, 2010, 09:59:58 AM »

ASW.

Tnx redzuan dan selamat datang ke forum FO, sdra zahmaz.

You'll definitely get 'racun-ed' if you start asking question about scopes, especially after you've listed such good ones..  evil

ok, based on your requirements, no tracking, manual,no need for photography, easy to use and 'all-purpose', as most of us already now my answer.. go for Dobs..  grin

Why? Just a bit of history, my first 'serious' scope was Meade's 10" Starfinder Dobsonian and bought it way back in 1995... and believe it or not, it is still usable, and perform well after 15 years!!

The ridiculously easy to setup (less than a minute!) scope simply a blast especially when you are all tired after work, and simply wants to 'glide' through the night sky without much hassle..

The combination of big aperture and simplicity is a great combination.

I wouldn't say my 10 inch dob is 'light', but it is sure is portable.. grab n go kind of thing. Your favourite object somehow blocked by tree or house? Simply carry and move the location, pluck it down, and wallaa.. you're starting observing again...

Lacked of GoTo forced me to study the sky, and make you a better stargazer. GoTo spoilt me abit..  rolleyes

Aperture, if got budget and big car, go for 10 inch. Nice size and balanced between portability and weight. 12.5"? dunno..never tried one. I've managed to try a nice 8 inch Dob at KUSZA few years back, really-really nice and small. Shows a lot too!

16"  Dob ? hmmmm...  evil  (racun-mode)

Does the 10inch killed my interest? Nope.. in fact at times it helps to rejuvenate it back during hard times..

6" for Dobs.. I wouldn't really like it. To small for aperture. Rasa rugi pulak. Rather spend a bit more for at least an 8".

Then, if you really want to add GoTo functionality.. buy a digital setting circle, like Argo Navis...  evil (racun-mode) The one I used before was Meade's Magellan DSC, i think way back in 1998. Actually it is a Push-To. You still have to push the Dob around but have the DSC helping you find the objects.

Then, if you want to make it Track objects and has true GoTo functionality, tambah ServoCAT pulak..  evil (racun-mode).

Photography on Dobs? not too suitable but not impossible. Short exposures are fine. Longer ones, then you have to 'convert' your Dob to mimic like an Equatorial mount, so kena beli EquatorialPlatform pulak.. but too expensive though..

Performance on Deep-Sky. My 10 inch Dob at dark sky simply kills! The bright Nebulas, like Orion's, was like milk stain on some dark velvet in the sky.. cruising through the Milky Way will take your breath away. Galaxies in Virgo was like starfield..

Planets too are really nice.Pop in some high powered eyepiece or Barlow-ed existing ones, you will have a front seat of the solar system greats.. problem is of course , with manual , the planets will simply 'fly' away like "the Red-Blue Blur" ... kena main kejar-kejar..  grin

Myself , my 3 scope all have different purposes. 10" Dob for visual, 8" LX90 Meade, mostly for high powered planetary view. the 80mm SW Equinox for wide-angle star field view and the sharpest planetary view, but now mostly for astrophotography.

So, of the 6 requirements, I would say I can fulfill 5 1/2 of them.

Which scope? If based on you list.. I personally would go for the Skywatcher 8".

If you stay in KL, then it would be best if we can have a small TT session at someones place, then I can probably show all the scopes and you can try it out. Maybe CK of Perseid boleh chip in bagi comment and 'recommendation'....

alamak.. dah sejuk teh tarik dan roti canai aku... time to continue makan sekejap..  afro

« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 10:26:06 AM oleh shahgazer » Logged

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zahmaz
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« Reply #3 pada: April 28, 2010, 10:55:57 AM »

redzuan,

Thank you for the swift reply.

I only have some idea of what I might need based on reading which is really not enough.

Would a 120 refractor be a good starter? Bukan ke ia agak clumsy sebab panjang (tube length about 1 m) and berat at 40 lbs?  Takut nanti jarang guna. Also I read somewhere that eq. mount is a bit difficult to use with all the aligning and stuff?

Yes, I would add that motor drive is necessary. What I mean is that I don't want GoTo yet, auto tracking - yes. Do I need the single or dual axis motor? Tak berapa clear on it's function and need.
You suggest that the tube length is about the same as the folded tripod and mount. Is it for neatly-packing-and-put-in-carry-case purpose?

What do you mean "for portability, a tripod is suffice"? As opposed to what? I also don't know what is a Sky-scout.

What is the purpose of a spotting scope and what is the difference between it and astro scope? Can the Vixen VMC 110L on alt-az Porta II be considered a spotting scope too?

Hope you can enlighten me on the above. Thanks again.


Salam
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zahmaz
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« Reply #4 pada: April 28, 2010, 11:40:08 AM »

Dear shahgazer,

Thanks for the reply. I think I sudah kena racun-ed. Malam tadi mimpi ada banyak telescope, berpuluh-puluh SCT in various sizes, mostly orange in colour, being transported in some kind of conveyor. There are a lot of other people there too. I wonder what this all mean. Good I hope.

A dob has always been a strong contender (again based on reading american articles and reviews) but I need to find out if it's true for our region too. Manalah tau tak sesuai for equatorial region and maybe our climate (humidity etc). Someone did mentioned about needing for re-coating for the mirror. How true is this?

My question now is would it be the 8" or 10"? Rasa 10" ni besar sangat tak? I'm keen on the collapsible version as it would help on the portability issue (ringan sikit and mengecil bila simpan) but I'm not sure about collimation issues. The Meade truss tube also looks really cool and high-tech, and lighter than the solid tube ala Orion XT. I purposely not wanting GoTo because I want to learn the skies the traditional way.

I do have the budget and my car is big enough (a seven seater).

What is a digital setting circle, the servo cat and the equatorial platform? I understand that we have to kejar the objects but is it really a big problem?

From my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong, there is no all-purpose telescope. The SCT is a good compromise. Serious amateurs might eventually get a few to fulfill this need. The general set up might look like this:
1. A large dob (8" to 12") for deep-sky
2. A refractor (4' to 5" better if APO) or a a high f ratio Maksutov for planets
3. A mid-sized SCT, 8" to 11", for all-purpose, GPS, GoTo, photography and everything in
4. A small grab n go, travel

I appreciate your offer for the TT (what does it mean) session to show and educate me on these stuff. I live in the Lembah Kelang . How can I get in touch with you? I'm just so glad that I can talk to somebody about this astronomy and telescope thing which has been my interest since childhood.

Sorry about the teh tarik and roti canai yang dah sejuk tu.

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mymoon
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« Reply #5 pada: April 28, 2010, 11:44:03 AM »



hati2 ada tiga kumpulan di FO;satu di sponsor satu lagi beli dengan wang sendiri  dan satu lagi kedua2nya:-D

baca tak cukup untuk peralatan astronomi especially amateur telescope.

telescope amatur di jual complete set atau component contoh OTA, mount, eyepiece, extension tube, case/bag, finder scope dll.

low to mid set up biasa nya package. high end biasanya kena pilih extras yang mahu dibeli.

sebelum beli pi lihat dan pegang sendiri baru tahu. fondle dan angkat dan lihat dengan mata dan melalui eyepiece. tapi tinggal dompet kat rumah. nanti tersilap beli. mabuk dengan pilihan.kot2 impulse buying nanti kena buyers remorse. rolleyes


hati2 bila beli dari luar negara. tak recommend untuk beginner sebab nya kadang kala barangan defective mesti hantar balik belanja shipping and handling agak besar, kena faham malaysian kastam prosedur n susah bila nak bertanya fasal tu dan ni. banyak benda yang bolih tak kena dari optiks nya focusser nya, tube nya dll

jadi lebih baik lah lawat kedai2 local yang jual peralatan astronomi or order melalui mereka kalau taada stock atau model yang di hajati. harga nya mungkin mahal sedikit tapi servis  memuaskan.

dicadangkann juga join lah local starparty atau join local club activiti. baru tahu ada macam2 rupa telescope dan mount dan perlatan tambahan yang di perlukan.

clear skies is required too.

cheers
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shahgazer
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« Reply #6 pada: April 28, 2010, 12:15:11 PM »

Dear shahgazer,

Thanks for the reply. I think I sudah kena racun-ed. Malam tadi mimpi ada banyak telescope, berpuluh-puluh SCT in various sizes, mostly orange in colour, being transported in some kind of conveyor. There are a lot of other people there too. I wonder what this all mean. Good I hope.


haha.. kalau dah sampai termimpi-mimpi ni, tak lama lagi ada la sebiji dua teleskop tu. BTW, call me Shah je..  afro

A dob has always been a strong contender (again based on reading american articles and reviews) but I need to find out if it's true for our region too. Manalah tau tak sesuai for equatorial region and maybe our climate (humidity etc). Someone did mentioned about needing for re-coating for the mirror. How true is this?

I would say, material-wise, if we go observed at high humidity area, like Bukit Fraser ke, your scope will be soaking wet.. and at the exposed area around the tube, will become slight 'lembik' .. but so far I tengok it's not a big deal.

Mirror care is a must. And I must say myself pun is not too carefull about this thing, but it is still a must. Since we live in high humidity country, after observe make sure the scope is dry before covering it. Else you'll find it to be home-sweet-home for fungus, boleh ternak cendawan lagi tu..  grin . Oh yes, I learn the hard way. Recoating kena. Some say every 10 years(?), But I never re-coated mine. Maybe ada some degrade in quality, but then my Dob never had a side-by-side companion to compare with. So I  assume ok je la..  grin


My question now is would it be the 8" or 10"? Rasa 10" ni besar sangat tak? I'm keen on the collapsible version as it would help on the portability issue (ringan sikit and mengecil bila simpan) but I'm not sure about collimation issues. The Meade truss tube also looks really cool and high-tech, and lighter than the solid tube ala Orion XT. I purposely not wanting GoTo because I want to learn the skies the traditional way.

Collimation is an issue, but do not let it be the issue for putting you off from buying Dobs, like the truss-tube ones. Beli SCT pun akan ada collimation issue. Size can be the factor to choose either 8" or 10"... my 10" dulu masa guna Wira, boleh fit nicely inside the back boot. Now using Avanza, usually I put at the middle seat, all by itself. Sometimes, I stacked in behind along with my other boxes. 10" full tube Dob is bulky.. no excuse about that..

But kalau beli collapsible then, you will definitely save space.


I do have the budget and my car is big enough (a seven seater).

ahaa... then go for 16" , truss tube, can easily fit  ...  evil (extra racun-mode)


What is a digital setting circle, the servo cat and the equatorial platform? I understand that we have to kejar the objects but is it really a big problem?

A digital setting circle is simply a device which reads out the position of your scope. It has 2 encoder that will be need to 'fix' onto your azimuth or altitude bearings. It works exactly like those GoTo scope, which is setup with North, 2-star alignment and that's it. Then, in the keypad, you select which object to find. 2 numbers or bar will indicate how 'far' the object is as compared to you current scope location. Just move or PushTo your scope until the reading descends to zero or the bar (macam signal bar dalam phone) dissappear. Very very easy. You need to set it up, install at the axis first before using it. And kena remove after observation. But from my experience guna Magellan tu, it's a snap.

ServoCAT is basically some servo motors installed on your telescope axis. Usually runs on 12V battery (I think). It will magically make your scope moves to desired location (when coupled with a DSC) and continue tracking the object. The object in the eyepiece will stay fix.

Equatorial platform's objective is the same as ServoCAT, that is to help your scope track and follow the objects. However, this is an extra piece of equipment. Your scope will be placed on top of the platform, switch on the motor and is move the scope with it.

Kejar-mengejar in Dobs is not a big issue, if you use low power eyepiece. But once you put on higher power, the field of view will be narrower, and the object will move 'faster'. If you're watching alone at high power, than no problem because you can continue fix your eye at the eyepiece will you hand slowly move the scope. Practise makes perfect. BUT, if you want to show someone else , then susah sikit, because the object moves very very fast, and usually 1 or 2 person je sempat tengok before object tu 'dah lari'...

From my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong, there is no all-purpose telescope. The SCT is a good compromise. Serious amateurs might eventually get a few to fulfill this need. The general set up might look like this:
1. A large dob (8" to 12") for deep-sky
2. A refractor (4' to 5" better if APO) or a a high f ratio Maksutov for planets
3. A mid-sized SCT, 8" to 11", for all-purpose, GPS, GoTo, photography and everything in
4. A small grab n go, travel

I appreciate your offer for the TT (what does it mean) session to show and educate me on these stuff. I live in the Lembah Kelang . How can I get in touch with you? I'm just so glad that I can talk to somebody about this astronomy and telescope thing which has been my interest since childhood.

True, there's no such thing as all-purpose telescope. But in my opinion la, the closest one can get is a 8 inch Dob with tracking. Can get good Deep Skies (wide angle) , planets are easily (boost up power), tracking say with ServoCAT ke.. for future endeavour in astrophotography.  

TT = Teh Tarik session..  grin

Myself and quiet a number of us here live in KL and around it as well. So boleh je we meetup. Myself is in Sri Damansara. Yang lain kena tuan punya diri beritau..  grin

Check your PM, I've sent over my contact number there...

Sorry about the teh tarik and roti canai yang dah sejuk tu.

No problemo.

hati2 ada tiga kumpulan di FO;satu di sponsor satu lagi beli dengan wang sendiri  dan satu lagi kedua2nya:-D

hahaha. pak aziz, how I wish I can get sponsored!!!  cool
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« Reply #7 pada: April 28, 2010, 04:32:01 PM »

Assalamualaikum.

Sorry for interrupting.......But i want to tumpang sekaki in asking question about telescope as well, don't need to bother to open a new thread grin

What is the difference between refractor and reflector with same aperture, say like:-

120mm refractor (glass) vs 120mm reflector (mirror)

What's the difference between these two, in term of what can you observe? I already know that concave mirror can gather more light than convex lens, but what is the significant from this.

And about mount, do the mount comes with motor drive, or we must purchase it separately? (Im interested with EQ5 lately)

"SHUKRAN JAZILAN"
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shahgazer
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« Reply #8 pada: April 29, 2010, 10:31:41 AM »


And about mount, do the mount comes with motor drive, or we must purchase it separately? (Im interested with EQ5 lately)


ASW,

Not all mount comes with motor drive. contoh EQ5 basic set tak de motor. But can add-on. HEQ5 Pro, tu semua ada motor + GoTo. CK would probably can clarify further on models yang sesuai. I think Pak Aziz ada one mount yang dah add-on motor..

 
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« Reply #9 pada: April 29, 2010, 12:33:55 PM »

Alt-Az or GEM (EQ)ada

1. manual

2. RA motor saje (untuk GEM)

3. motors

4. goto. tiga jenis with hand controller or planetarium software control or both

5. autoguiding port.

some models can add on 2 ,3,4,5 or comes complete.

jangan lupa beli tripod, the most solid possible. of course transportability is a must unless in an observatory.

not all GEM mounts are suitable for use in the equatorial region. Although can be modified(the reason called amateur astronomy) when purchasing check for Altitude suitable for up to 0 deg. You may need a half pier extension too or have to live with restricted RA movements.

and precision engineering(standard tolerances versus tight tolerances) cost money and so do load carrying capacity of the mounts.

Basically you get what you pay for grin

anything else to add....sifus


cheers
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